Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:38:08 -0800
From: Brad Templeton <brad@templetons.com> To: net_CALLBOY <hans@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: under attorney-client privilege Organization: http://www.templetons.com/brad 


We're discussing it -- we are very tapped out right now and can only take on a new case when the need is extreme -- and we're trying to work out some warts that have been alleged. To take on a new case we must be able to raise new money to support it. 

In particular, etoy, a group we supported in the eToys lawsuit, really has come to dislike you since you left and is encouraging us to have nothing to do with you.

In particular they have two problems

1) They claim you are using their name after you left the group, calling yourself an etoy.AGENT, listing them as a client, and leading people to make the mistake voteauction has something to do with etoy, which is causing them a variety of problems. 

Now frankly, we don't plan to judge the merits of the case base on whether you're a trademark infringer or not, but it sure would help if you could make nice with them. You probably should and we might insist you would provide the appropriate disclaimer that voteauction as nothing to do with etoy.

2) Much more serious, they believe and want to convince us that this is all a publicity stunt rather than a satire. While that doesn't affect whether it's right for the goverment to shut it down, in practical terms, it makes it very difficult to raise money to fund a case. As you may or may not know, EFF is entirely funded by member/donors, who give to us because they support our causes. I could see many of them saying that if a company is going to stir up legal trouble as a publicity stunt (Which is what your phrase Digital Legal Art seems to imply) then that company should pay for the cost of their own stunt. 

So what answer would we have for that charge, particularly if etoy expresses that opinion in the public forum after a case begins and we're trying to raise money. A lot of our members supported etoy against eToys because, while etoy benefitted from the publicity, they were mostly just minding their own business when eToys sued. If people start thinking you bought this site just so you could get sued, as etoy would have them believe, it will be harder to raise money. Do you have an answer that could fix that problem?Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:40:39 -0800
From: Brad Templeton <brad@templetons.com> To: net_CALLBOY <hans@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: under attorney-client privilege Organization: http://www.templetons.com/brad 


On another note, if you want to make a big stir, do some checking on the legality and consider making "electoral-vote-auction.com" since right now in the USA the big focus is on how it is the electoral college votes which really count. I wonder if it's even illegal to buy their votes in some states. (Some states do have penalties for them voting against the popular vote, but only a few of them.)Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:57:08 +0100
To: net_CALLBOY <hans@ubermorgen.com>
From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: under attorney-client privilege 


dear brad,

thanks for your mail.

my name is lizvlx (call me liz, aka liz haas), i am the partner of hans in ubermorgen.

we already had suspicions as to why the process of us potentially getting together has slowed down, as we have been experiencing alike "interventions" in the recent past.

btw, i have nothing to do with etoy, execept for knowing all of them, and being good friends with some of them. 

ok, let's go down to your questions.

We're discussing it -- we are very tapped out right now and can only take on a new case when the need is extreme -- and we're trying to work out some warts that have been alleged. To take on a new case we must be able to raise new money to support it. 

first, our need is super-extreme. it appears to me that the courts have no intention whatsoever to drop the suits, and i am not really keen on us being judged without ever having had the chance to take stand in the court cases. 

as regards to your need raising money - i do understand, and i can happily tell you that i have given money to eff.org this year. 


In particular, etoy, a group we supported in the eToys lawsuit, really has come to dislike you since you left and is encouraging us to have nothing to do with you.

yes, we are confronted eith their "dislike" almost every day. to be honest, i am getting a bit tired of it, as i and hans just wanna do our stuff - you know, live and let live. 

it is not quite true that their dislike is since hans left etoy (actually, all but 2 people left etoy), the do not like us anymore since hans talks about etoy again. 

In particular they have two problems

1) They claim you are using their name after you left the group, calling yourself an etoy.AGENT, listing them as a client, and leading people to make the mistake voteauction has something to do with etoy, which is causing them a variety of problems. 

voteauction only has to do with etoy because hans is known as etoy.HANS. we list them as i client because we have worked for and with them (also after hans had left the group). we always quote vote-auction as "brought to you by ubermorgen.com". 

as i myself have not even ever been a member of etoy, i am frankly not at all even interested in voteauction being thought of as an etoy project.

you are saying that the fact that some people mistake voteauction as being an etoy project causes "a variety of problems": i cannot really understand that, i am sure if there had been any real problems arising from this kind of misunderstanding, the two etoy guys would have contacted us. this has not happened, so i would not know how to comment on "various problems". 

Now frankly, we don't plan to judge the merits of the case base on whether you're a trademark infringer or not, but it sure would help if you could make nice with them.

that sure makes things easier, because there are many unsettled issues concerning etoy still dating back to the breakup of the group, and i am also not too interested in having to deal with this complex when ubermorgen is working on its own projects. 

You probably should and we might insist you would provide the appropriate disclaimer that voteauction as nothing to do with etoy. 

well, frankly, i really don't understand why i as 50% partner of ubermorgen and the one who did most of the content work on voteauction, have to tell people that i am not associated with etoy. that seems ridiculous to me. really, i do not understand that if they have such a problem with it, that they never contacted us about it.
still, that does not mean, that i would negate the possibility of such a disclaimer. not at all.


2) Much more serious, they believe and want to convince us that this is all a publicity stunt rather than a satire. 

you might wanna ask yourself what their motive is in doing so. 


While that doesn't affect whether it's right for the goverment to shut it down, in practical terms, it makes it very difficult to raise money to fund a case. As you may or may not know, EFF is entirely funded by member/donors, who give to us because they support our causes.

satire needs publicity, and also, good publicity needs some satire. what it comes down to is the following: 1. it is not a publicity stunt in itself as we'd be making 
really poor gain on that: ubermorgen works commercially because we like it, and because we need to raise money for our living and our non-profit projects. getting publicity in the u.s. (it's 95% u.s.) makes no sense to us in commercial terms, as we do not work with clients in the u.s. we only work in the german speaking markets and eastern europe.
2. also, the target group of voteauction is quite different 
from our target commercial clients. voteauction appeals more to the employee than the manager, as one can clearly imagine.

maybe i'll point out the work of ubermorgen quickly, and then later give you our view of voteauction. 

ubermorgen exists as .com (commercial stuff), .org (political) and .net (community stuff). we work 50% commercially, we are hans and myself, liz, 1 employee - moni, and 2-3 steady freelancers. working 50% commercially reflects our basic approach: we want to do the projects we like, develop our own projects. we do not want to be depentent from state or federal funds in doing so, as we figure that we are intelligent enough and full of know-how with high market value so that we are able to finance our projects ourselves by working on the commercial markets.

still, our primary customers are within a quite thin margin of companies and projects in need of marketing to peer groups in the net.art/tech field.

another focus of our work is the development of software together with youngsters from eastern european countries. 

yes, we are a company offering marketing services. that is because we like to share knowledge and we need the money. we are not a big time commercial company trying to get a share out of the big .com cake.

regarding our views on voteauction:
we took over voteauction from james baumgartner because he needed save haven for the project. and we were happy to offer that. it took on more and more publicity, and over time we started getting really involved, actually reading the text of the site and forming our own opinions. my personal view is a very political one, especially because o have quite strong bindings with the u.s. and because of the austrian situation. i regard the project as a extremely necessary tool for showing people the current standing of the u.s. democracy, its potenial future and the individuals power within the system. hans always has a more publicly-oriented view on things. we share the same political views and beliefs, so what i stated above is true for hans as well. additional to that, he also views it as an excellent example and/or experiment of public opinion forming, government intervention, international law and the weirdness of what we perceive when we talk about "capitalism". 

if some-one says we are doing it in order to gain publicity for our company (and in order to make more profit with the company) then that is simply wrong.

as i stated before, i am aware of the necessity of public funding for associations like eff.org - i especially understand this as ubermorgen.org, our platform for "resistance" against the austrian fpoe/oevp has also partly been dependent on such funding. (the rest of the funding of projects like these, and voteauction comes from the money we make when working for external clients.) 


I could see many of them saying that if a company is going to stir up legal trouble as a publicity stunt (Which is what your phrase Digital Legal Art seems to imply) then that company should pay for the cost of their own stunt. 

the phrase digital legal art refers to the diverse and sometimes quite obscure sub.definitions of net.art and also the crazyness of the self-refering systems of target group marketing. again, if it were publicity that we are doing, then i also see that we should be paying it ourselves. we don't have the money to pay for it, and with that i mean i would not favor doing publicity that i cannot afford. i do nmot like expensive publicity anyway. let microsoft do that. 


So what answer would we have for that charge, particularly if etoy expresses that opinion in the public forum after a case begins and we're trying to raise money.

if it helps, i can provide you with lists of people who are in deep support of our cause. i with these people i mean internationally known net.artists, curators, academics, etc. if you need this, i will ask them to "sign" some kind of support note.

A lot of our members supported etoy against eToys because, while etoy benefitted from the publicity, they were mostly just minding their own business when eToys sued.

i remember very well when the suit came, we talked about it a lot, as all the members of etoy were of course very concerned about their "baby" being threatened by .com money. thanks a lot ther for the support you have given etoy there, would probably not have been possibly without you guys! 

and also, we are pretty much also only minding our own business (or maybe i do not understand what you mean with this). we wanna keep voteauction available to its users. and we do not want to have to pay thousands of dollars because of people trying to silence the sharing of political ideas of people in the u.s., and the whole world. 

If people start thinking you bought this site just so you could get sued, as etoy would have them believe, it will be harder to raise money. Do you have an answer that could fix that problem? 

we did not "buy" the site. technically, james just gave it over to us. there was no money involved in this process. the whole business aspect of the site is part of the message (which is that it is not the voters that elect the president, but it is the money). 

it is ridiculous to think that we took over james' project in order to get sued. we never thought we would get sued. i hate getting sued. i have better things to do. 

and etoy cannot just "make people believe" that we wanna get sued in order to raise publicity for our own financial gains. the people that supported etoy in etoy vs. etoys (that is also including all at ubermorgen) are also now in support of us. 

if this still does not clear up things, maybe then we should get on the phone. call me at +49-175.2066954, i can also give you a ring back.

let's solve this, this is ridiculous.

best
lizvlx
--
. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:26:29 +0100
To: brad@templetons.com
From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: under attorney-client privilege 


dear brad,

thanks for your mail. here comes a long email back.. 

my name is lizvlx (call me liz, aka elisabeth haas), i am the partner of hans [luzius bernhard] in ubermorgen. 

we already had suspicions as to why the process of us potentially getting together has slowed down, as we have been experiencing alike "interventions" in the recent past.

btw, i have nothing to do with etoy, execept for knowing all of them, and being good friends with some of them. 

ok, let's go down to your questions.

We're discussing it -- we are very tapped out right now and can only take on a new case when the need is extreme -- and we're trying to work out some warts that have been alleged. To take on a new case we must be able to raise new money to support it. 

first, our need is super-extreme. it appears to me that the courts have no intention whatsoever to drop the suits, and i am not really keen on us being judged without ever having had the chance to take stand in the court cases. 

as regards to your need raising money - i do understand, and i can happily tell you that i have given money to eff.org this year. 


In particular, etoy, a group we supported in the eToys lawsuit, really has come to dislike you since you left and is encouraging us to have nothing to do with you.

yes, we are confronted eith their "dislike" almost every day. to be honest, i am getting a bit tired of it, as i and hans just wanna do our stuff - you know, live and let live. 

it is not quite true that their dislike is since hans left etoy (actually, all but 3 people left etoy), they do not like us anymore since hans talks about etoy again. 

In particular they have two problems

1) They claim you are using their name after you left the group, calling yourself an etoy.AGENT, listing them as a client, and leading people to make the mistake voteauction has something to do with etoy, which is causing them a variety of problems. 

voteauction only has to do with etoy because hans is known as etoy.HANS [he is a shareholder of etoy, and that is what he was also talking about]. we list them as i client because we have worked for and with them (also after hans had left the group). we always quote vote-auction as "brought to you by ubermorgen.com".

as i myself have not even ever been a member of etoy, i am frankly not at all even interested in voteauction being thought of as an etoy project.

you are saying that the fact that some people mistake voteauction as being an etoy project causes "a variety of problems": i cannot really understand that, i am sure if there had been any real problems arising from this kind of misunderstanding, the two etoy guys would have contacted us. this has not happened, so i would not know how to comment on "various problems". 

Now frankly, we don't plan to judge the merits of the case base on whether you're a trademark infringer or not, but it sure would help if you could make nice with them.

that sure makes things easier, because there are many unsettled issues concerning etoy still dating back to the breakup of the group, and i am also not too interested in having to deal with this complex when ubermorgen is working on its own projects. 

You probably should and we might insist you would provide the appropriate disclaimer that voteauction as nothing to do with etoy. 

well, frankly, i really don't understand why i as 50% partner of ubermorgen and the one who did most of the content work on voteauction, have to tell people that i am not associated with etoy. that seems ridiculous to me. really, i do not understand that if they have such a problem with it, that they never contacted us about it.
still, that does not mean, that i would negate the possibility of such a disclaimer. not at all.


2) Much more serious, they believe and want to convince us that this is all a publicity stunt rather than a satire. 

you might wanna ask yourself what their motive is in doing so. 


While that doesn't affect whether it's right for the goverment to shut it down, in practical terms, it makes it very difficult to raise money to fund a case. As you may or may not know, EFF is entirely funded by member/donors, who give to us because they support our causes.

satire needs publicity, and also, good publicity needs some satire. what it comes down to is the following: 

1. it is not a publicity stunt in itself as we'd be making 
really poor gain on that: ubermorgen works commercially because we like it, and because we need to raise money for our living and our non-profit projects. getting publicity in the u.s. (it's 95% u.s.) makes no sense to us in commercial terms, as we do not work with clients in the u.s. we only work in the german speaking markets and eastern europe.

2. also, the target group of voteauction is quite different 
from our target commercial clients. voteauction appeals more to the employee than the manager, as one can clearly imagine.

maybe i'll point out the work of ubermorgen quickly, and then later give you our view of voteauction. 

ubermorgen exists as .com (commercial stuff), .org (political) and .net (community stuff). we work 50% commercially, we are hans and myself, liz, 1 employee - moni, and 2-3 steady freelancers. working 50% commercially reflects our basic approach: we want to do the projects we like, develop our own projects. we do not want to be depentent from state or federal funds in doing so, as we figure that we are intelligent enough and full of know-how with high market value so that we are able to finance our projects ourselves by working on the commercial markets.

still, our primary customers are within a quite thin margin of companies and projects in need of marketing to peer groups in the net.art/tech field.

another focus of our work is the development of software together with youngsters from eastern european countries. 

yes, we are a company offering marketing services. that is because we like to share knowledge and we need the money. we are not a big time commercial company trying to get a share out of the big .com cake.

regarding our views on voteauction:

we took over voteauction from james baumgartner because he needed save haven for the project. and we were happy to offer that. it took on more and more publicity, and over time we started getting really involved, actually reading the text of the site and forming our own opinions. my personal view is a very political one, especially because i have quite strong bindings with the u.s. and because of the austrian situation. i regard the project as a extremely necessary tool for showing people the current standing of the u.s. democracy, its potenial future and the individuals power within the system. hans always has a more publicly-oriented view on things. we share the same political views and beliefs, so what i stated above is true for hans as well. additional to that, he also views it as an excellent example and/or experiment of public opinion forming, government intervention, international law and the weirdness of what we perceive when we talk about "capitalism". 

if some-one says we are doing it in order to gain publicity for our company (and in order to make more profit with the company) then that is simply wrong.

as i stated before, i am aware of the necessity of public funding for associations like eff.org - i especially understand this as ubermorgen.org, our platform for "resistance" against the austrian fpoe/oevp has also partly been dependent on such funding. (the rest of the funding of projects like these, and voteauction comes from the money we make when working for external clients.) 


I could see many of them saying that if a company is going to stir up legal trouble as a publicity stunt (Which is what your phrase Digital Legal Art seems to imply) then that company should pay for the cost of their own stunt. 

the phrase digital legal art refers to the diverse and sometimes quite obscure sub.definitions of net.art and also the crazyness of the self-refering systems of target group marketing. again, if it were publicity that we are doing, then i also see that we should be paying it ourselves. we don't have the money to pay for it, and with that i mean i would not favor doing publicity that i cannot afford. i do not like expensive publicity anyway. let microsoft do that. 


So what answer would we have for that charge, particularly if etoy expresses that opinion in the public forum after a case begins and we're trying to raise money.

if it helps, i can provide you with lists of people who are in deep support of our cause. with these people i mean internationally known net.artists, curators, academics, etc. if you need this, i will ask them to "sign" some kind of support note.

A lot of our members supported etoy against eToys because, while etoy benefitted from the publicity, they were mostly just minding their own business when eToys sued.

i remember very well when the suit came, we talked about it a lot, as all the members of etoy were of course very concerned about their "baby" being threatened by .com money. thanks a lot for the support you have given etoy there. 

and also, we are pretty much also only minding our own business (or maybe i do not understand what you mean with this). we wanna keep voteauction available to its users. and we do not want to have to pay thousands of dollars because of people trying to silence the sharing of political ideas of people in the u.s., and the whole world. 

If people start thinking you bought this site just so you could get sued, as etoy would have them believe, it will be harder to raise money. Do you have an answer that could fix that problem? 

we did not "buy" the site. technically, james just gave it over to us. there was no money involved in this process. the whole business aspect of the site is part of the message (which is that it is not the voters that elect the president, but it is the money). 

it is ridiculous to think that we took over james' project in order to get sued. we never thought we would get sued. i hate getting sued. i have better things to do. 

and etoy cannot just "make people believe" that we wanna get sued in order to raise publicity for our own financial gains. many people that supported etoy in etoy vs. etoys (that is also including all at ubermorgen) are also now in support of voteauction.

if this still does not clear up things, maybe then we should get on the phone. call me at +49-175.2066954, i can also give you a ring back.

let's solve this as soon as possible.


best

lizvlx [elisabeth haas]

hans_e [luzius bernhard]


--
. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:26:39 +0100
To: brad@templetons.com
From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: under attorney-client privilege 


dear brad,

concerning your thought about looking at the electors as the next "target group".

sure, i'd be tempting. but then, no, not at all. electors are people who already are in power, they are part of the problem, in my opinion. voteauction is and has been a platform for "end- users of the election industry", not for wholesalers and inter- mediaries.

shit, i'd be really tempting, but then, again, i am sure that there anough people working the electors already, and i am more interested in those people who are exluded from markets of goods - and/or opinion.

best

lizvlx and hans_e


On another note, if you want to make a big stir, do some checking on the legality and consider making "electoral-vote-auction.com" since right now in the USA the big focus is on how it is the electoral college votes which really count. I wonder if it's even illegal to buy their votes in some states. (Some states do have penalties for them voting against the popular vote, but only a few of them.) --
. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:02:24 +0100
To: laura.krasser@mail.ago.state.mo.us
From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: documents
Cc: "Jill LaHue" <Jill.LaHue@mail.ago.state.mo.us> 


dear laura,

jill lahue has advised me that you are now taking on her cases while she is on vacation. 

she has sent me some docs recently, you can find the specifics in her mail which i am quoting below.

i have tried to read the docs provided by jill lahue. unfortunately, the documents were a bit malformated so that i was not able to read them to their full extend.

furthermore, i myself cannot judge the contents of the docs - i have no access to the legal basis the documents refer to.

thusly, i will have to wait and see until i receive the documents in well-formated .pdf format and then have them read by an u.s. laywer.

best
lizvlx

Dear Liz,

I have attached pdf versions of the consent injuction/judgment documents. The one that Luzius needs to sign is "consjudg-stp" and the other one, as I mentioned previously, is a copy for you to read of the order that the judge will sign. Also, you'll need to have the signature certified and then mail to me the original signed stipulation. 

Again, my address and other info is:

Attorney General's Office
1530 Rax Court
Jefferson City, MO 65109
phone 573/751-7677
fax 573/751-7948

Thank you and let me know if you have more questions. 

Very truly yours,
Jill


Attachment converted: Mac OS 9:consjudg-stp.pdf (TEXT/ttxt) (0000932B) Attachment converted: Mac OS 9:consjudg-ord.pdf (TEXT/ttxt) (0000932C) 

--
. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
From: "Chris Hansen" <CHansen@aclu.org>
To: "net_CALLBOY" <hans@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: RE: under attorney-client privilege Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:04:59 -0500
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Importance: Normal

Considering that the ACLU of Illinois is representing Mr. Baumgartner, there is no way I could represent you. If the Illinois affiliate wishes to represent you as well as Mr. Baumgartner, they will have to decide that. You can reach Mr. Grossman at 312-201-9740. I would be happy to talk to you even though I think there is no chance I can represent you. My number is 212-549-2606 (I will be out of the office until next Mon. (Nov. 20)). Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
From: "Kesner, Alan R." <kesnerar@DOJ.STATE.WI.US> To: "'hans@ubermorgen.com'" <hans@ubermorgen.com> Subject: Proposed settlement
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 14:11:19 -0600

Luzius: I understand you have fairly good English language skills, but if I am wrong I apologize. I will have these messages and documents translated into German if you need me to.

(Ich verstehe, da§ Sie ziemlich gute englische Sprachfhigkeiten haben, aber, wenn ich Unrecht bin, sich entschuldigen Sie. Ich habe diese Meldungen und Dokumente bersetzt in Deutsches, wenn Sie mich zu bentigen.) (Ich entschuldige auch mich fr meine eigene schlechte bersetzung.) 

Since you appear to not actually be doing what the website made it appear you were going to do, the State of Wisconsin is willing to settle our case against you on the terms outlined in the attached documents. They are in .pdf format, but if you prefer another format, please let me know. 

All you need to do is print out three copies of each document and sign all three copies of the "settlement agreement". Send them to me via the "regular" mail, and I will sign one and return it to you for your files, keep one for my files, and file the other with the court here. 

If you prefer to fax a signed page, or scan a signed copy and send me the image file, I am sure we can work with that also, but the real ink signature is the best.

My mailing address is on the last page of the agreement. 

If you do this, we will then dismiss the case against SilverServer and CSL (although Oskar Obereder has refused to even sign for the documents we have sent to him, maybe you can let him know this is what is going to happen). 

I hope these terms are acceptable to you. But if you have concerns about specific terms, please respond to this e-mail with those concerns and we can discuss what can be done to change them. 

Thank you,

Alan Kesner.

----------------------
Alan R. Kesner				kesnerar@doj.state.wi.us Assistant Attorney General		Phone:	(608) 267-2070 Wisconsin Department of Justice	Fax:		(608) 267-2778 




Attachment converted: berlin:Settlement Agreement.pdf (PDF /CARO) (0001BACC) Attachment converted: berlin:Consent Decree Permanent Injunc (PDF /CARO) (0001BACD) Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: voteauction@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:20:40 +0100
To: "Joel B. Rothman" <jrothman@seidenlaw.com> From: "PR [V]ote-auction.com" <PR@[62.116.31.68]> Subject: RE: your article
Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com

sure, just mail me a list
of questions, and i'll answer.

cv's/bio here we go:: first me (hehe), then hans. best,
lizvlx


########start bio lizvlx / elisabeth haas ####### 

2000
lecture at micro lounge, berlin
lecture at last tuesday, berlin
lecture at berlinbeta3.0, berlin
development of voteauction.com / voteauction.at with j.baumgartner founding of bannster.net together with hans_extrem and carl@micromusic.org founding of ubermorgen.org [austrian widerstand/resistance site] working for the following clients at ubermorgen.com: 
skim.com á cyberhelvetia.ch á sil.at á micromusic.net á cittadelarte.it phalanx.cc á rosa.com á trendbuero/msn.de á sumosushi.de 

1999
lecture at SEAFair99, skopke, macedonia, "VR is in y/head" founding of ubermorgen.com together with hans_extrem founding of ubermorgen.net together with hans_extrem and erica dubach project work for R.O.S.A. internet escorts, zurich management (vice president) of ogilvy interactive, vienna founding of etxtreme.ru together with hans_extrem 

1998
ars electronica, faces project & website mba university of economics, vienna
continous work on 194.152.164.137 [userunfriendly] / http://toilet.sil.at 

1997-1995
founding of 194.152.164.137 [userunfriendly] together with andrea mayr diverse web.projects

1994-1992
studies at the academy of fine arts, vienna studies at the university of economics, vienna 

1991-1980
school in salzburg/at
highschool in ny/usa

30.01. 1973 born in linz, austria


######start bio hans_extrem/etoy.HANS/luzius bernhard######## 

2000
founder and CEO of ubermorgen.com, vienna/austria http://www.ubermorgen.com ubermorgen.org / WWWiderstand; resistance-net http://www.ubermorgen.org 

1999
founder of ubermorgen.net [network of digital uberbrains] http://www.ubermorgen.net
founder etxtreme.ru [read fast! think later!] http://www.etxtreme.ru magister artium [M.F.A.], university of applied arts [uaa], vienna prof. peter weibel

1994-1999
etoy http://www.etoy.com
:: etoy.TIMEZONE :: etoy.TANK-17 :: etoy.SHARES :: protected by etoy :: the digital hijack :: etoy.TANKSYSTEM :: etoy.PROMOTION :: etoy.VISUALS :: founder of etoy ;
radical computer-animation raves/events/movies text digital [wordwar, tanz du sau]
techno-music producer/lyrics [etoy.SOUND] 

1995-96
acting experimental and feature films in europe 

1974-1991
childhood and work in switzerland

1971
born in yale, ct

Thanks for the reply. If it is okay with you I would like to compose a list of questions and e-mail these to you. Also, if you have a bio of yourself I would like to receive that.

Joel B. Rothman
Seiden, Alder, Rothman, Petosa & Matthewman, P.A. 2300 Glades Road, Suite 340 West
Boca Raton, FL 33431
561.416.0170/fax 561.416.0171
reply to jrothman@seidenlaw.com
http://www.seidenlaw.com

NOTICE: This electronic message contains information from the law firm of Seiden, Alder, Rothman, Petosa & Matthewman, P.A. that may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately.


-----Original Message-----
From: PR [V]ote-auction.com [mailto:PR@[62.116.31.68]] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 4:11 PM To: Joel B. Rothman
Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com
Subject: RE: your article



dear joel,

thanks for getting back, and btw i was too quick anwering your mail - i saw later that i was you who not only wrote the article but also sent me the notification of the article.

that just as a note..

regarding:

Would you be interested in answering some more questions and discussing theissues further for an expanded article I would like to write?

absolutely, we are particularily interested in the legal aspects that voteauction is now being more and more confronted with (seems to be another parallel to the actual elections ;). 

and as i said, i considered your article well researched and phrased, so i would gladly answer further questions you might have.

sincerely,

lizvlx



I only knew about the Chicago injunction at the time I went to press. Also,
I could not find your domain where you relocated so I could not put it in my
article. I know it now.



Joel B. Rothman
Seiden, Alder, Rothman, Petosa & Matthewman, P.A. 2300 Glades Road, Suite 340 West
Boca Raton, FL 33431
561.416.0170/fax 561.416.0171
reply to jrothman@seidenlaw.com
http://www.seidenlaw.com

NOTICE: This electronic message contains information from the law firm of Seiden, Alder, Rothman, Petosa & Matthewman, P.A. that may be privileged and confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately.


-----Original Message-----
From: PR [V]ote-auction.com [mailto:PR@[62.116.31.68]] Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:15 AM To: jrothman@seidenlaw.com
Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com
Subject: your article



dear mr rothman,

i enjoyed very much reading your article, i found it very well put and researched.

however, there are just a few notes i would like to add:

. not only chicago has issued restraining orders and 
injunctions, but also missouri (they are claiming consumer rights violations, wrongful promise etc), also wisconsin and massachussetts have issued comparable legal orders.
. voteauction is still online, it can be accessed 
via
http://www.voteauction.at and
http://voteauction.de and our IP
http://62.116.31.68

best,
lizvlx, [V]ote-auction
--
. . [V]ote-auction.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
http://www.vote-auction.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ema pr@vote-auction.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

bringing democracy and capitalism closer together! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

--
. . [V]ote-auction.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
http://www.vote-auction.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ema pr@vote-auction.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

bringing democracy and capitalism closer together! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

--
. . [V]ote-auction.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
http://www.vote-auction.com
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ema pr@vote-auction.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

bringing democracy and capitalism closer together! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:19:26 +0100
From: Diana McCarty <diana@vifu.de>
Organization: Virtual International Women's University X-Accept-Language: en
To: hans@ubermorgen.com, liz@ubermorgen.com Subject: [Fwd: Request for support]



-------- Original Message --------
X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Message-ID: <3A1C52F6.991AF5E0@vifu.de>
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:12:55 +0100
From: Diana McCarty <diana@vifu.de>
Organization: Virtual International Women's University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: barlow@eff.org
Subject: Request for support
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear John,

It is me Diana from Budapest! Now in Berlin. I hope that it is not out of order for me to ask for your help on this, but here goes. 

Two friends/colleagues of mine are in trouble with the law in the US- I think
you are aware of the voteauction.com action (for lack of a better term). 

Liz Haas aka lizvlx and Hans from Ubermorgen.com are looking at numerous lawsuits in the US after taking on the site from James Baumgartner.
To make a long story short - they were contacted by mutual friends and asked
to take over the project when things got too heavy for Baumgartner, the logic
being that they would be less vulnerable as Europeans. They are now seeking the
support of EFF and ACLU, as they are not as invulnerable as one might have thought.

This might be difficult enough, but to make things more difficult and I really hate
to bother you with this, but it has become relevant, Hans has a rather difficult
relationship with the some of the etoy group, which he co-founded. It is clear that one
member of etoy is writing to EFF and requesting that EFF not support voteauction.com
for various reasons. I won't go into all the details here, but on at least two points, the
accusations are simply false - one being that Ubermorgen has taken on voteauction.com
as a marketing gimmick for the company, and that etoy will use any support the EFF
provides voteauction.com as a reason to turn the etoy campaign group against EFF.

I think what makes these accusations especially false is that Ubermorgen was asked to
take on voteauction.com by one of the people behind the work of the etoys war
(from Rt.mark) who is not an etoy. Many of the people who supported the etoys
war also support voteauction.com and are not simply a mass to be called on a personal
whim. I include myself here, as I search for some legal support for voteauction .com in the
states.

Finally, I know that Liz and Hans have been in contact with Brad Templeton at EFF
who was quite frank about receiving mail from one of the etoy members (Zai), and the questions
that were raised by him. This does seem to have cooled down his interest in supporting
voteauction.com. Could you possibly look into the matter? I'm not sure what else can be done
but I'd hate to see voteauction.com or these two people (that I have a great deal of respect for)
suffer because of unresolved personal matters. The political and legal implications are simply more important.


all the best,

Diana McCarty

PS: Happy Thanksgiving. I will be eating a less than traditional meal of carne adovada,
rice, sucotash, beer and margaritas with Pit, Hans and Liz!Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 00:21:13 +0100
From: Diana McCarty <diana@vifu.de>
Organization: Virtual International Women's University X-Accept-Language: en
To: barlow@eff.org, hans@ubermorgen.com, liz@ubermorgen.com Subject: voteauction.com

Dear John, Liz, and Hans,

I just wanted to provide contact information here and let John know that 

I've forwarded my mail to Liz and Hans.

All the best,

DianaDelivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:27:51 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: <hans@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction (fwd) 

okeedoke, sent this!

http://rtmark.com/
Turning information resources into emotional capital. 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:26:06 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: brad@templetons.com
Subject: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction

Dear Brad,

Hans Bernhard has asked us to write you regarding your possible help in defending the Voteauction website (run by Hans and Liz of Ubermorgen) and its host (Silverserver.at) against some absurd American lawsuits. Hans mentioned that etoy.ZAI is accusing him of running Voteauction to advertise his business.

The disagreements between etoy.ZAI and ex-etoy.HANS are deep and old. Zai and Hans cofounded etoy and were the primary forces behind it until they split up in 1998 or 1999. At that point, depending on who you believe, Hans left after Zai became aggressive, or after Hans tried to eject Zai from the group. Hans and Zai are likely to say terrible things about each other; we've stopped believing either one, and are friends with both. 

We have been involved with Voteauction from the start (please see http://rtmark.com/voteauction.html) and feel that Hans and Liz are running it not to make money or advertise their business, but because they think it's a good idea. They rescued it from oblivion when James Baumgartner was feeling the pressure of the New York authorities; being far away in Austria (and also more experienced with being at the receiving end of legal efforts) they felt up to the challenge. 

We have been aware from the start that Ubermorgen.com might also benefit from this, but this is true of anyone who does anything: in this case we felt it wasn't the main point.

As we write in our press release at the above URL, the issue seems to be one of free speech: Voteauction is a satirical website, and various entities are trying to squelch it, even though they know full well it's satirical and not actually in the business of selling votes. Whether or not the site, in addition to making a political point very strongly and clearly, also as a side-effect helps a small business, doesn't seem too important to us. And we do feel that Hans and Liz's intentions are not self-promotion, but to accomplish a project well. 

Best wishes,
Ray Thomas

http://rtmark.com/
Turning information resources into emotional capital.Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:11:45 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: net_CALLBOY <hans@ubermorgen.com>
cc: <liz@ubermorgen.com>, <diana@vifu.de> Subject: Re: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction (fwd) 

brad wrote back, said they're not concerned with ubermorgen making money or anything, and they're not taking sides, they just think that if they support it directly and then zai goes around screaming whatever he screams, it'll make it very difficult for eff to raise money for it, and that's crucial for them right now. he said that what they might do instead is file an "amicus brief" in the baumgartner case, that aclu is defending, and if that works out that should cover ubermorgen too. i think that sounds smart...

http://rtmark.com/
Turning information resources into emotional capital. 

On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, net_CALLBOY wrote:

>>okeedoke, sent this!
>
>thank you ray!°
>hans_e
>
>>http://rtmark.com/
>>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:26:06 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
>>To: brad@templetons.com
>>Subject: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction
>>
>>Dear Brad,
>>
>>Hans Bernhard has asked us to write you regarding your possible help in defending the Voteauction website (run by Hans and Liz of Ubermorgen) and its host (Silverserver.at) against some absurd American lawsuits. Hans mentioned that etoy.ZAI is accusing him of running Voteauction to advertise his business.
>>
>>The disagreements between etoy.ZAI and ex-etoy.HANS are deep and old. Zai and Hans cofounded etoy and were the primary forces behind it until they split up in 1998 or 1999. At that point, depending on who you believe, Hans left after Zai became aggressive, or after Hans tried to eject Zai from the group. Hans and Zai are likely to say terrible things about each other; we've stopped believing either one, and are friends with both. 
>>
>>We have been involved with Voteauction from the start (please see http://rtmark.com/voteauction.html) and feel that Hans and Liz are running it not to make money or advertise their business, but because they think it's a good idea. They rescued it from oblivion when James Baumgartner was feeling the pressure of the New York authorities; being far away in Austria (and also more experienced with being at the receiving end of legal efforts) they felt up to the challenge. 
>>
>>We have been aware from the start that Ubermorgen.com might also benefit from this, but this is true of anyone who does anything: in this case we felt it wasn't the main point.
>>
>>As we write in our press release at the above URL, the issue seems to be one of free speech: Voteauction is a satirical website, and various entities are trying to squelch it, even though they know full well it's satirical and not actually in the business of selling votes. Whether or not the site, in addition to making a political point very strongly and clearly, also as a side-effect helps a small business, doesn't seem too important to us. And we do feel that Hans and Liz's intentions are not self-promotion, but to accomplish a project well. 
>>
>>Best wishes,
>>Ray Thomas
>>
>>http://rtmark.com/
>>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>
>--
>
>. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +43-676-9300061. . . .ema hans@ubermorgen.com. . . . . . .fax +43-1-9681022. . . . .icq 38302022 . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +49-175-2066954 . . .pgp 0xBA42D1B7 . . . . . . . . . . .handle: HB13447-RIPE . . .www.keyserver.net. . . . . 
>
>. .if you dont get help from us,please get help somewhere! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>featureZ::
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [V]ote-auction: http://62.116.31.68 "bringing capitalism . 
>and demoCRAZY closer together":brought to you by ubermorgen . http://www.cnn.com/video/burden/2000/10/24/show.rm80.ram . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .http://www.theyesmen.org/wto/ zupported by ubermorgen.com . .http://www.oliviasheaven.com ----"---- -- ------"------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>
Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:13:23 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: <hans@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction (fwd) 

here's this--don't quote of course....
r


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:09:17 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: Brad Templeton <brad@templetons.com> Subject: Re: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction 

Hi Brad,

I understand. I guess barring convincing Zai that this isn't a publicity stunt, there's probably no way to eliminate that problem, unless you specifically ask him not to run around making your work more difficult that way.

But the Baumgartner way sounds very smart. I didn't know the ACLU was already defending it. I'm no lawyer, but it does sound like that winning would fix the ubermorgen thing too. I'm just baffled that anyone is even pursuing this anymore. I could see when they might have half-thought it was real (though even then, a bit of research would have been good before jumping to lawsuits), but now???? Oh well, guess that's why I'm not a lawyer....

Thanks a lot for your help.
Ray

>>Dear Brad,
>>The disagreements between etoy.ZAI and ex-etoy.HANS are deep and old. Zai and Hans cofounded etoy and were the primary forces behind it until they split up in 1998 or 1999. At that point, depending on who you believe, Hans left after Zai became aggressive, or after Hans tried to eject Zai from the group. Hans and Zai are likely to say terrible things about each other; we've stopped believing either one, and are friends with both. 
>
>Yeah, it's even more fun to have them go at one another as strangers. 
>>
>>We have been aware from the start that Ubermorgen.com might also benefit from this, but this is true of anyone who does anything: in this case we felt it wasn't the main point.
>
>The one issue in my mind on this is not what argument Hans and ZAI have. 
>
>The EFF, as a foundation supported by donors and members, needs to raise money to take on new cases. If ZAI is going to run around telling people that the fine folks at etoy -- whom we and our members supported in the fight with etoys -- hate ubermorgen and say it's a stunt to help the business, this makes it harder to raise money. People will feel that a business doing a publicity stunt should pay the cost. 
>
>We're very strapped right now with our DVD case and other cases, which is the big issue. We can't afford new cases that won't cause donors to come forward. We do believe strongly in the principle that the goverment should not shut down satire.
>
>What we may end up doing is filing an Amicus in the Baumgartner case, which the ACLU is heading. This sets the precedent but has no warts. And if it wins, it should clear the way for ubermorgan too. Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:48:44 +0100
To: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction (fwd) Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com


hi ray

thanks for that forward.

i think it is mybe really the smartest approach. 

however, james is only being sued in chicago, we are having suit also in mass., wisc., and missouri. 

i dont know how that woulfd work then... 

also, we also have to clear the records of silverserver. 

i am getting pretty desperate now, i dont want to be loaded with millsion dollar dameges judgements in remote u.s. states - i would like to finally talk with somebody - at the moment, i feel like all the legal people are tuning away.

i am pretty soon going to lose my trust with these organizations - we need fucking help... <yelp> 

best
liz

brad wrote back, said they're not concerned with ubermorgen making money or anything, and they're not taking sides, they just think that if they support it directly and then zai goes around screaming whatever he screams, it'll make it very difficult for eff to raise money for it, and that's crucial for them right now. he said that what they might do instead is file an "amicus brief" in the baumgartner case, that aclu is defending, and if that works out that should cover ubermorgen too. i think that sounds smart...

http://rtmark.com/
Turning information resources into emotional capital. 

On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, net_CALLBOY wrote:

>okeedoke, sent this!

thank you ray!°
hans_e

>http://rtmark.com/
>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>
>---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:26:06 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
>To: brad@templetons.com
>Subject: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction
>
>Dear Brad,
>
>Hans Bernhard has asked us to write you regarding your possible help in defending the Voteauction website (run by Hans and Liz of Ubermorgen) and its host (Silverserver.at) against some absurd American lawsuits. Hans mentioned that etoy.ZAI is accusing him of running Voteauction to advertise his business.
>
>The disagreements between etoy.ZAI and ex-etoy.HANS are deep and old. Zai and Hans cofounded etoy and were the primary forces behind it until they split up in 1998 or 1999. At that point, depending on who you believe, Hans left after Zai became aggressive, or after Hans tried to eject Zai from the group. Hans and Zai are likely to say terrible things about each other; we've stopped believing either one, and are friends with both. 
>
>We have been involved with Voteauction from the start (please see http://rtmark.com/voteauction.html) and feel that Hans and Liz are running it not to make money or advertise their business, but because they think it's a good idea. They rescued it from oblivion when James Baumgartner was feeling the pressure of the New York authorities; being far away in Austria (and also more experienced with being at the receiving end of legal efforts) they felt up to the challenge. 
>
>We have been aware from the start that Ubermorgen.com might also benefit from this, but this is true of anyone who does anything: in this case we felt it wasn't the main point.
>
>As we write in our press release at the above URL, the issue seems to be one of free speech: Voteauction is a satirical website, and various entities are trying to squelch it, even though they know full well it's satirical and not actually in the business of selling votes. Whether or not the site, in addition to making a political point very strongly and clearly, also as a side-effect helps a small business, doesn't seem too important to us. And we do feel that Hans and Liz's intentions are not self-promotion, but to accomplish a project well. 
>
>Best wishes,
>Ray Thomas
>
>http://rtmark.com/
>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 

--

. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
. . . . .mob +43-676-9300061. . . .ema hans@ubermorgen.com. . . . . . .fax +43-1-9681022. . . . .icq 38302022 . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +49-175-2066954 . . .pgp 0xBA42D1B7 . . . . . . . . . . .handle: HB13447-RIPE . . .www.keyserver.net. . . . . 

. .if you dont get help from us,please get help somewhere! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
featureZ::
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [V]ote-auction: http://62.116.31.68 "bringing capitalism . 
and demoCRAZY closer together":brought to you by ubermorgen . http://www.cnn.com/video/burden/2000/10/24/show.rm80.ram . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .http://www.theyesmen.org/wto/ zupported by ubermorgen.com . .http://www.oliviasheaven.com ----"---- -- ------"------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
.
.
.
.
.
.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 


--
. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:57:37 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: Brad Templeton <brad@templetons.com> Subject: Re: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction 

do you think they might care about how much more stupid they could look doing so? this tactic brought etoys to its knees; maybe it could cause them to lay off the suit? when some turning point comes--some filing or what-not, court date set, dunno--maybe rtmark could send out a press release to the effect of "embarrassed to have been exposed pursuing a mirage, chicago board of elections continues prosecution of art student / austrian artists on specious, obscure line...." 

i think if such a release were targeted to the chicago area especially (or wherever suits are going), it could cause them substantial embarrassment....

>
>I didn't say it was legal to continue prosecuting when made to look like a fool, it's just a motive. They will focus on the law that makes it illegal to incite others to sell votes, even if they are not sold. Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:12:28 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
cc: <hans@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction (fwd) 

wow.... that is all so ridiculous....

i wonder what happens if you just ignore all this crap? do they really try to come to austria to bother you?

i'd send this info to brad templeton if you haven't already and see if he can just suggest something for you to do. still seems to me it's so laughable it should be dismissible easily. any lawyer should be able to suggest what to do....

and if it really doesn't work, and they press very concretely forward (and turn down all your attempts to say "go away", phrased appropriately), we can always issue a press release geared to the particular market--chicago, wisconsin, whatever.... to embarrass them (bcc'ed you on thing to brad about that).
r

http://rtmark.com/
Turning information resources into emotional capital. 

On Fri, 24 Nov 2000, lizvlx wrote:

>
>hi ray
>
>yeah, i do hope that the idea of a precedent would help us also across state borders.
>
>however, i think when we want to tell a court that there already is a precendent, we need a lawyer to tell the court.
>
>as far as what they are suing us for:
>
>i hardly get it really...
>
>wisconsin:
>. Wis. Stat. § 12.11(1m)(a)3 - selling/advertising/promoting 
>offering of votes for election.
>-> public nuisance: open violation of criminal laws Wis.Stat. § 823.02 
>
>missouri:
>Section 407-020, RSMo 1994: the act, use, or employment by any person 
>of any deception, fraud, false pretend, false promise, misrepresentation, unfair practice or the concealment, supression, or omission of any material fact in connection with the sale or advertisment of any merchandise in trade or commerce or the solicitation of any funds for any charitable purpose, as defined in Section 407.453, in or from the State of Missouri, is declared to be an unlawful practice. Section 115.277, RSMo Supp. 1999, -- unlawfulness of james' ballot 
>voting system
>and other stuff i dont quite understand.. 
>
>massachussets:
>violation of G.L.c. 56 § 32 and G.L. 56 § 25: no buying of votes in 
>elections.
>and diverse other stuff that i don not understand. 
>
>chicago:
>influencing people by means of money on their voting behavior also some "conspiracy theory"
>class action for damages for deprivation of constitutional rights class action for damages for conspiring to encourage illegal voting 
>
>thats an incomplete overview - i really have lost grips with the stuff it is just too much.
>
>wisconsin wants to stop their case, but they want us to pay the court costs and sign all kinds of papers telling us what content to display on our websites.
>
>and i will mail that other guy..
>
>thanks ray :)
>
>best
>liz
>
>
>
>>>thanks for that forward.
>>>
>>>i think it is mybe really the smartest approach. 
>>>
>>>however, james is only being sued in chicago, we are having suit also in mass., wisc., and missouri. 
>>>
>>>i dont know how that woulfd work then... 
>>
>>as i understand american law, it works entirely by precedent--so if they win for james in chicago, the case is pretty identical elsewhere and lawyers can just point to it and say "see?" and the judge is convinced. and i think the case against james, whatever it can possibly be (annoying satire?), has been around longer than yours and is likely to be resolved in time???
>>
>>>also, we also have to clear the records of silverserver. 
>>>
>>>i am getting pretty desperate now, i dont want to be loaded with millsion dollar dameges judgements in remote u.s. states - i would like to finally talk with somebody - at the moment, i feel like all the legal people are tuning away.
>>>
>>>i am pretty soon going to lose my trust with these organizations - we need fucking help... <yelp> 
>>
>>what exactly are the suits? what are they claiming--that you embarrassed them? it's hard to believe anyone's going ahead with it at this point now that it's all fake. totally crazy.
>>
>>isn't it pretty clear they'll lose? i mean, it's a satire. hard to believe it will even get to court....
>>
>>rtmark hasn't done many outright hoaxes, but here's someone who has: joey skaggs <skaggs@joeyskaggs.com>
>>
>>we don't know him, but we know he's done a lot of things that are as crazy as this, and maybe he's gotten sued before and could tell you something about that, what happens when you get sued in a really really ridiculous way.
>>
>>again, tell me--what are they suing you for? i just can't imagine a case. 
>>
>>don't worry, we'll figure something out ray
>>
>>
>>>>brad wrote back, said they're not concerned with ubermorgen making money or anything, and they're not taking sides, they just think that if they support it directly and then zai goes around screaming whatever he screams, it'll make it very difficult for eff to raise money for it, and that's crucial for them right now. he said that what they might do instead 
>>>>is file an "amicus brief" in the baumgartner case, that aclu is defending, and if that works out that should cover ubermorgen too. i think that sounds smart...
>>>>
>>>>http://rtmark.com/
>>>>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, net_CALLBOY wrote: 
>>>>
>>>>>>okeedoke, sent this!
>>>>>
>>>>>thank you ray!É
>>>>>hans_e
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://rtmark.com/
>>>>>>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:26:06 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
>>>>>>To: brad@templetons.com
>>>>>>Subject: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dear Brad,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hans Bernhard has asked us to write you regarding your possible help in defending the Voteauction website (run by Hans and Liz of 
>>>Ubermorgen) and
>>>>>>its host (Silverserver.at) against some absurd American lawsuits. Hans mentioned that etoy.ZAI is accusing him of running Voteauction to advertise his business.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The disagreements between etoy.ZAI and ex-etoy.HANS are deep 
>>>and old. Zai
>>>>>>and Hans cofounded etoy and were the primary forces behind it 
>>>until they
>>>>>>split up in 1998 or 1999. At that point, depending on who you believe, Hans left after Zai became aggressive, or after Hans tried to eject Zai from the group. Hans and Zai are likely to say terrible 
>>>things about each
>>>>>>other; we've stopped believing either one, and are friends with both. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We have been involved with Voteauction from the start (please see http://rtmark.com/voteauction.html) and feel that Hans and 
>>>Liz are running
>>>>>>it not to make money or advertise their business, but because 
>>>they think
>>>>>>it's a good idea. They rescued it from oblivion when James 
>>>Baumgartner was
>>>>>>feeling the pressure of the New York authorities; being far away in Austria (and also more experienced with being at the receiving end of legal efforts) they felt up to the challenge. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We have been aware from the start that Ubermorgen.com might 
>>>also benefit
>>>>>>from this, but this is true of anyone who does anything: in 
>>>this case we
>>>>>>felt it wasn't the main point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As we write in our press release at the above URL, the issue 
>>>seems to be
>>>>>>one of free speech: Voteauction is a satirical website, and various entities are trying to squelch it, even though they know full well it's satirical and not actually in the business of selling votes. Whether or not the site, in addition to making a political point very strongly and clearly, also as a side-effect helps a small business, doesn't seem too important to us. And we do feel that Hans and Liz's intentions are not self-promotion, but to accomplish a project well. 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Best wishes,
>>>>>>Ray Thomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://rtmark.com/
>>>>>>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>
>>>>>. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +43-676-9300061. . . .ema hans@ubermorgen.com. . . . . . .fax +43-1-9681022. . . . .icq 38302022 . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +49-175-2066954 . . .pgp 0xBA42D1B7 . . . . . . . . . . .handle: HB13447-RIPE . . .www.keyserver.net. . . . . 
>>>>>
>>>>>. .if you dont get help from us,please get help somewhere! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>>featureZ::
>>>>>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [V]ote-auction: http://62.116.31.68 "bringing capitalism . 
>>>>>and demoCRAZY closer together":brought to you by ubermorgen . http://www.cnn.com/video/burden/2000/10/24/show.rm80.ram . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>>. .http://www.theyesmen.org/wto/ zupported by ubermorgen.com . .http://www.oliviasheaven.com ----"---- -- ------"------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>>>.
>>>>>.
>>>>>.
>>>>>.
>>>>>.
>>>>>.
>>>>>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>>uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>
>>>if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 
>>>
>>>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>
>
>--
>. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>
>if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 
>
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>
Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:54:08 +0100
To: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction (fwd) Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com


hi ray

yeah, i do hope that the idea of a precedent would help us also across state borders.

however, i think when we want to tell a court that there already is a precendent, we need a lawyer to tell the court.

as far as what they are suing us for:

i hardly get it really...

wisconsin:
. Wis. Stat. ¤ 12.11(1m)(a)3 - selling/advertising/promoting 
offering of votes for election.
-> public nuisance: open violation of criminal laws Wis.Stat. ¤ 823.02 

missouri:
Section 407-020, RSMo 1994: the act, use, or employment by any person 
of any deception, fraud, false pretend, false promise, misrepresentation, unfair practice or the concealment, supression, or omission of any material fact in connection with the sale or advertisment of any merchandise in trade or commerce or the solicitation of any funds for any charitable purpose, as defined in Section 407.453, in or from the State of Missouri, is declared to be an unlawful practice. Section 115.277, RSMo Supp. 1999, -- unlawfulness of james' ballot 
voting system
and other stuff i dont quite understand.. 

massachussets:
violation of G.L.c. 56 ¤ 32 and G.L. 56 ¤ 25: no buying of votes in 
elections.
and diverse other stuff that i don not understand. 

chicago:
influencing people by means of money on their voting behavior also some "conspiracy theory"
class action for damages for deprivation of constitutional rights class action for damages for conspiring to encourage illegal voting 

thats an incomplete overview - i really have lost grips with the stuff it is just too much.

wisconsin wants to stop their case, but they want us to pay the court costs and sign all kinds of papers telling us what content to display on our websites.

and i will mail that other guy..

thanks ray :)

best
liz



>thanks for that forward.

i think it is mybe really the smartest approach. 

however, james is only being sued in chicago, we are having suit also in mass., wisc., and missouri. 

i dont know how that woulfd work then... 

as i understand american law, it works entirely by precedent--so if they win for james in chicago, the case is pretty identical elsewhere and lawyers can just point to it and say "see?" and the judge is convinced. and i think the case against james, whatever it can possibly be (annoying satire?), has been around longer than yours and is likely to be resolved in time???

also, we also have to clear the records of silverserver. 

i am getting pretty desperate now, i dont want to be loaded with millsion dollar dameges judgements in remote u.s. states - i would like to finally talk with somebody - at the moment, i feel like all the legal people are tuning away.

i am pretty soon going to lose my trust with these organizations - we need fucking help... <yelp> 

what exactly are the suits? what are they claiming--that you embarrassed them? it's hard to believe anyone's going ahead with it at this point now that it's all fake. totally crazy.

isn't it pretty clear they'll lose? i mean, it's a satire. hard to believe it will even get to court....

rtmark hasn't done many outright hoaxes, but here's someone who has: joey skaggs <skaggs@joeyskaggs.com>

we don't know him, but we know he's done a lot of things that are as crazy as this, and maybe he's gotten sued before and could tell you something about that, what happens when you get sued in a really really ridiculous way.

again, tell me--what are they suing you for? i just can't imagine a case. 

don't worry, we'll figure something out
ray


>brad wrote back, said they're not concerned with ubermorgen making money or anything, and they're not taking sides, they just think that if they support it directly and then zai goes around screaming whatever he screams, it'll make it very difficult for eff to raise money for it, and that's crucial for them right now. he said that what they might do instead 
>>is file an "amicus brief" in the baumgartner case, that aclu is defending, 
>and if that works out that should cover ubermorgen too. i think that sounds smart...
>
>http://rtmark.com/
>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>
>On Thu, 23 Nov 2000, net_CALLBOY wrote: 
>
>>>okeedoke, sent this!
>>
>>thank you ray!
>>hans_e
>>
>>>http://rtmark.com/
>>>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>>>
>>>---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:26:06 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
>>>To: brad@templetons.com
>>>Subject: etoy/ubermorgen/voteauction
>>>
>>>Dear Brad,
>>>
>>>Hans Bernhard has asked us to write you regarding your possible help in defending the Voteauction website (run by Hans and Liz of 
Ubermorgen) and
>>>its host (Silverserver.at) against some absurd American lawsuits. Hans mentioned that etoy.ZAI is accusing him of running Voteauction to advertise his business.
>>>
>>>The disagreements between etoy.ZAI and ex-etoy.HANS are deep 
and old. Zai
>>>and Hans cofounded etoy and were the primary forces behind it 
until they
>>>split up in 1998 or 1999. At that point, depending on who you believe, Hans left after Zai became aggressive, or after Hans tried to eject Zai from the group. Hans and Zai are likely to say terrible 
things about each
>>>other; we've stopped believing either one, and are friends with both. 
>>>
>>>We have been involved with Voteauction from the start (please see http://rtmark.com/voteauction.html) and feel that Hans and 
Liz are running
>>>it not to make money or advertise their business, but because 
they think
>>>it's a good idea. They rescued it from oblivion when James 
Baumgartner was
>>>feeling the pressure of the New York authorities; being far away in Austria (and also more experienced with being at the receiving end of legal efforts) they felt up to the challenge. 
>>>
>>>We have been aware from the start that Ubermorgen.com might 
also benefit
>>>from this, but this is true of anyone who does anything: in 
this case we
>>>felt it wasn't the main point.
>>>
>>>As we write in our press release at the above URL, the issue 
seems to be
>>>one of free speech: Voteauction is a satirical website, and various entities are trying to squelch it, even though they know full well it's satirical and not actually in the business of selling votes. Whether or not the site, in addition to making a political point very strongly and clearly, also as a side-effect helps a small business, doesn't seem too important to us. And we do feel that Hans and Liz's intentions are not self-promotion, but to accomplish a project well. 
>>>
>>>Best wishes,
>>>Ray Thomas
>>>
>>>http://rtmark.com/
>>>Turning information resources into emotional capital. 
>>
>>--
>>
>>. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +43-676-9300061. . . .ema hans@ubermorgen.com. . . . . . .fax +43-1-9681022. . . . .icq 38302022 . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +49-175-2066954 . . .pgp 0xBA42D1B7 . . . . . . . . . . .handle: HB13447-RIPE . . .www.keyserver.net. . . . . 
>>
>>. .if you dont get help from us,please get help somewhere! . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>featureZ::
>>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [V]ote-auction: http://62.116.31.68 "bringing capitalism . 
>>and demoCRAZY closer together":brought to you by ubermorgen . http://www.cnn.com/video/burden/2000/10/24/show.rm80.ram . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>>. .http://www.theyesmen.org/wto/ zupported by ubermorgen.com 
>>. .http://www.oliviasheaven.com ----"---- -- ------"------- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>>

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if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 


--
. . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . mob|de +49-175-2066954. . . .ema liz@ubermorgen.com . . . . . mob|at +43-676-9300095. . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . fax|at +43-1-9681022. . . . .pgp 0x413C38B8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 

if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere! 

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:: the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 02:23:35 -0500 (EST) From: RTMark admin <admin@rtmark.com>
To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Subject: aclu

howdy hans

just talked to james, who isn't supposed to talk to you for legal reasons ("discovery".... apparently you're supposed to be careful too). 

anyhow, i told him about the eff thing, and he wrote: 

Harvey
Grossman (ACLU of Illinois) mentioned that he emailed hans once but didn't get a reply or the reply got buried in his inbox or something. Anyway, hans should get in touch with him again. I'm not sure if they would represent him, but they might be able to help him out, and maybe the ACLU in Missouri or Massachussetts would represent him for those cases. 


so maybe they're not in cahoots with eff so much.... 

hope all's well
r

http://rtmark.com/
Turning information resources into emotional capital.Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 19:52:12 +0100
To: "Kesner, Alan R." <kesnerar@DOJ.STATE.WI.US> From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Re: Wisconsin, USA, Court case
Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com

hiback there

soryy to keep ya waiting - but we really finally enjoyed bigg time holidays over chrismas. 

so, and then, we just found out that missouri totally dropped the case - so basicall, before rushing things - why don't you go along and drop the case as well?

i thought i might directly ask...

no stress, i am sure we will figure something out until the court hearing next week. until when exacetly do you need the papers?

best, hope you have had a great xmas/chanukah as well, 

liz

Hello Liz: Did you ever go over that proposed settlement agreement with Hans? I need to tell the court next week exactly what is happening with it. As soon as you guys get that signed document back to me, I can dismiss Oskar and joker.com from the case.

If you need new copies of the documents, please let me know. 

Thanks,

Alan.

----------------------
Alan R. Kesner				kesnerar@doj.state.wi.us Assistant Attorney General		Phone:	(608) 267-2070 Wisconsin Department of Justice	Fax:		(608) 267-2778 


. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +43-676-9300095. . . .e-ma liz@ubermorgen.com. . . . . . .fax +43-1-9681022. . . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +49-175-2066954 . . .pgp 0xBA42D1B7 . . . . . . . . . . .handle: LH2044-RIPE . . . www.keyserver.net. . . . . 

. .if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
From: "Kesner, Alan R." <kesnerar@DOJ.STATE.WI.US> To: 'lizvlx' <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com
Subject: RE: Wisconsin, USA, Court case
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:31:42 -0600

Liz:

Thanks for responding so quickly.

Unfortunately, my boss does not support "just dropping" this case (I suggested it as an option). So, the best option is for me to get a signed settlement agreement from Hans. Actually, I think it demands very little if you stay away from trying to operate a real "vote auction" involving Wisconsin votes.

The court will be calling me late next week, probably on Friday 26 January. Anytime before that would be great.

If you have any questions, please ask.

Have a good weekend.

Alan.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: lizvlx [mailto:liz@ubermorgen.com] Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 12:52 PM
>To: Kesner, Alan R.
>Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com
>Subject: Re: Wisconsin, USA, Court case 
>
>
>hiback there
>
>soryy to keep ya waiting - but we really finally enjoyed bigg time holidays over chrismas. 
>
>so, and then, we just found out that missouri totally dropped the case - so basicall, before rushing things - why don't you go along and drop the case as well?
>
>i thought i might directly ask...
>
>no stress, i am sure we will figure something out until the court hearing next week. until when exacetly do you need the papers?
>
>best, hope you have had a great xmas/chanukah as well, 
>
>liz
>
>>Hello Liz: Did you ever go over that proposed settlement 
>agreement with
>>Hans? I need to tell the court next week exactly what is 
>happening with it.
>>As soon as you guys get that signed document back to me, I 
>can dismiss Oskar
>>and joker.com from the case.
>>
>>If you need new copies of the documents, please let me know. 
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Alan.
>>
>>----------------------
>>Alan R. Kesner				kesnerar@doj.state.wi.us Assistant Attorney General		Phone:	(608) 267-2070 Wisconsin Department of Justice	Fax:		(608) 267-2778 
>
>
>. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +43-676-9300095. . . .e-ma liz@ubermorgen.com. . . . . . .fax +43-1-9681022. . . . .icq 43228608 . . . . . . . . . . . .mob +49-175-2066954 . . .pgp 0xBA42D1B7 . . . . . . . . . . .handle: LH2044-RIPE . . . www.keyserver.net. . . . . 
>
>. .if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>.
>.
>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>
Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:35:31 +0100
To: hans@ubermorgen.com
From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: Fwd: RE: Wisconsin, USA, Court case 

Delivered-To: mailliz@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: liz@ubermorgen.com
From: "Kesner, Alan R." <kesnerar@DOJ.STATE.WI.US> To: 'lizvlx' <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: RE: Wisconsin, USA, Court case
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:40:40 -0600


Here is the Word version. (Scanned for virus!) 

All you need to do is print out three copies of the document and have Luzius ("Hans") sign all three copies of the "settlement agreement". Send them to me via the "regular" mail, and I will sign one and return it to you for your files, keep one for my files, and file the other with the court here. 

If you prefer to fax a signed copy, or scan a signed copy and send me the image file, I am sure we can work with that also, but the real ink signature is the best.

My mailing address is on the last page of the agreement. 

Please contact me if you have any questions. 

Thanks again,

Alan.



>-----Original Message-----
>From: lizvlx [mailto:liz@ubermorgen.com] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 12:32 PM
>To: Kesner, Alan R.
>Subject: RE: Wisconsin, USA, Court case 
>
>
>word will do just as well.
>just don't send any virus! ;)
>
>thanks
>liz
>
>>Liz:
>>
>>The final document is giving us problems in Adobe Acrobat, 
>so we are having
>>a problem converting it to .pdf from MSWord. I will have to 
>wait until
>>Monday to get it to you in that format. 
>>
>>Is there another format that would work for you instead? We 
>can do almost
>>all word processing formats and a few others formats as 
>well. If I do not
>>hear from you, I will just wait until Monday to get it to you. 
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Alan.
>
>
>. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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>uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
>




Attachment converted: berlin:final_settlement.doc (WDBN/MSWD) (00027B29) 

. . . . . . . . . . . : ::ubermorgen.com:: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .if you dont get help from us, please get help somewhere!. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
X-Sender: mailliz@mail.ubermorgen.com (Unverified) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 01:26:40 +0100
To: "Kesner, Alan R." <kesnerar@DOJ.STATE.WI.US> From: lizvlx <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Subject: RE: Wisconsin, USA, Court case
Cc: hans@ubermorgen.com

hiback alan,

just a short question, well a few:
1.) where is the altered consent decree? 2.) where is the right permanent injunction? 3.) how would we now that you enter the right 
consent decree in court?
4.) then, you also forgot to change the terms 
of article 6 of the settlement agreement. 5.) then, another quick note: voteauction.de 
is not our property.
6.) in article 8 of the agreement it reads: 
"...except as necessary to enforce..."
what would you need to enforce? and if,
what means are you talking about? very
abstract and blurry to me.
7.) finally, in article 5 of the settlement 
agreement it says "...effectuate compliance" what would we have to "effectuate"? do
you mean you still want us to change the site? this is just sooo abstract.
8.) one more: we should change that "..in writing..." 
into either certified mail, or better into something like "as stipulated in the contracts of the 'the hague international civil process contracts'".
9.) last: we would not want to lie - so we would 
have to change article 10 and cross out
"...legal and other advise so as to be fully informed..". this is just not true. we never had a lawyer, nor advisers to u.s. law.

as a closing question:
what about the judgement: i thought we were finding a settlement out of court, a vergleich (i do not know the english term). why is there a judgement then? 

ok,
best

liz


Here is the Word version. (Scanned for virus!) 

All you need to do is print out three copies of the document and have Luzius ("Hans") sign all three copies of the "settlement agreement". Send them to me via the "regular" mail, and I will sign one and return it to you for your files, keep one for my files, and file the other with the court here. 

If you prefer to fax a signed copy, or scan a signed copy and send me the image file, I am sure we can work with that also, but the real ink signature is the best.

My mailing address is on the last page of the agreement. 

Please contact me if you have any questions. 

Thanks again,

Alan.



>-----Original Message-----
>From: lizvlx [mailto:liz@ubermorgen.com] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 12:32 PM
>To: Kesner, Alan R.
>Subject: RE: Wisconsin, USA, Court case 
>
>
>word will do just as well.
>just don't send any virus! ;)
>
>thanks
>liz
>
>>Liz:
>>
>>The final document is giving us problems in Adobe Acrobat, 
>so we are having
>>a problem converting it to .pdf from MSWord. I will have to 
>wait until
>>Monday to get it to you in that format. 
>>
>>Is there another format that would work for you instead? We 
>can do almost
>>all word processing formats and a few others formats as 
>well. If I do not
>>hear from you, I will just wait until Monday to get it to you. 
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Alan.



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uberDISCLAIMER 01 :: : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .the contents of this email, and any attachments, are . . . .CONFIDENTIAL and intended only for the person[s] to whom. . . .they are addressed:: if you have received the email in. . . . .error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it . . .from your computer system:: do not copy or distribute it. . . .or disclose its contents to any person:: unless otherwise . . .stated, the views and opinions expressed in this email are. . .personal to the sender and do not represent the official. . . .view of the company :: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
From: "Kesner, Alan R." <kesnerar@DOJ.STATE.WI.US> To: 'lizvlx' <liz@ubermorgen.com>
Cc: "'hans@ubermorgen.com'" <hans@ubermorgen.com> Subject: RE: Wisconsin, USA, Court case
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:09:27 -0600

Liz:

My response to each question is below the question itself. If you need anything else, please do not hesitate to contact me. 

Thanks,

Alan.:

>1.) where is the altered consent decree? 2.) where is the right permanent injunction? 

Oops, I forgot to send that to you. My mistake. It is actually one document which serves both purposes (then only one signature is needed. It is attached here, along with the newly-changed version of the settlement agreement.

>3.) how would we now that you enter the right 
>consent decree in court?

Because I am an honest and trustworthy person. (I am smiling as I say that.)

Actually, I will send you a copy of the signed document from the court, showing that it has been entered.

And if I did something like that, I would lose my license to practice law. 

>4.) then, you also forgot to change the terms 
>of article 6 of the settlement agreement. 

I remember making that change, but must have pulled up an archived version that did not have the change. It is now in this copy. 

>5.) then, another quick note: voteauction.de 
>is not our property.

It's gone from the documents now.

>6.) in article 8 of the agreement it reads: 
>"...except as necessary to enforce..."
>what would you need to enforce? and if, what means are you talking about? very
>abstract and blurry to me.

Number 8 means that after this is entered, we will not take any more action regarding this particular situation, unless we are later complaining that you, for some reason, are not following this agreement. Does that make sense now?

>7.) finally, in article 5 of the settlement 
>agreement it says "...effectuate compliance" what would we have to "effectuate"? do
>you mean you still want us to change the site? this is just sooo abstract.

As it exists now, your site is OK (except the warning language can be added). All that means is that you will try to make sure that Silverserver and others who do things for you will not do the things you cannot do. But you are not REQUIRED to make sure they don't do it. You just have to do what you can.

I took out the "Defendant shall advise Attorney for the State of Wisconsin of his compliance with this term." I trust you to take care of it. 

>8.) one more: we should change that "..in writing..." 
>into either certified mail, or better into something like "as stipulated in the contracts of the 'the Hague international civil process contracts'".

The Hague conventions actually would require going through Embassies and costing over $500(US) per document. I know, because I had to figure out what we would have done if you were not being so friendly and cooperative and we had wanted to push harder than we did. 

It now simply says "delivered via a method providing acknowledgement of receipt by the Defendant", which means, basically, something you have to sign for (UPS and similar services do not qualify as "certified mail" in our system here). Hope that will do the trick. 

>9.) last: we would not want to lie - so we would 
>have to change article 10 and cross out "...legal and other advise so as to be fully informed..". this is just not true. we never had a lawyer, nor advisers to u.s. law.

It's out of the paragraph now.

>as a closing question:
>what about the judgement: i thought we were finding a settlement out of court, a vergleich (i do not know the english term). why is there a judgement then? 

Settling out of court actually just means that the case was settled by an agreement between us without the court having to make the decision. Entering a "judgement" is the way the court puts that into its records and acknowledges that it agrees with this conclusion. Otherwise, the court record would make it appear that the case is without any resolution. 

I think if "vergleich" as a friendly agreement or understanding. I think we're being "friendly" about this, aren't we? 




Attachment converted: berlin:Consent Decree Permanent Injunc (PDF /CARO) (00028145) Attachment converted: berlin:VoteAuction Final Settlement Ag (PDF /CARO) (00028146) Delivered-To: mailhans@ubermorgen.com
Delivered-To: hans@ubermorgen.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:55:31 +0100 (CET) From: steffi schliepack <sschliepack@yahoo.de> Reply-To: info@adviser-online.de
To: Luzius <hans@ubermorgen.com>
Cc: liz <liz@ubermorgen.com>

Hallo Luzius,
hallo Liz,

ich bin dafr, da§ Ihr in der Schweiz klagt, soweit es um urheberrechtliche Schadensersatzansprche aus der Website geht.

In Ansprchen aus Vertragsrecht hingegen ist der Gerichtsstand Deutschland, Dsseldorf.

Ob Ihr in vertraglicher Hinsicht vor Gericht Erfolg haben knnt, hngt von der entscheidenden Frage ab, ob die "Terms and Conditions" von JOKER bzw. CSL in dem Punkt wirksam geworden sind, in dem sie gem§ dem miteinbezogenen "Registration Agreement" (Punkt 4) ein Abschaltrecht des Access-Providers - sei es fr CORE, sei es auch fr JOKER - regeln.

Eine solche Vereinbarung ist nur dann wirksam, wenn der Verwender - Verwender ist JOKER als
Vertragsschlie§ender, CORE ist lediglich Erfllungsgehilfe - rechtlich verpflichtet ist, eine WEbsite wegen ihres Inhaltes abzuschalten. Eine solche Verpflichtung besteht fr JOKER nicht, da die Website nicht strafbar ist nach deutschem Recht (da kein nationales Rechtsgut betroffen ist) und somit keine rechtswidrigen Inhalte enthlt. Da§ CORE mglicherweise nach Schweizer Recht verpflichtet sein mag, die Website abzuschalten, mag dahingestellt bleiben. Damit verst§t der miteinbezogene Punkt 4 des "Registration Agreement" gegen ¤ 9 AGBG und ist unwirksam.

Der weitere Weg fhrt im Ergebnis zu einem Schadensersatzanspruch gegen JOKER aus nchtrglicher, vom Schuldner zu vertretender Unmglichkeit nach ¤ 325 BGB.

Problem ist hier nicht die Vollstreckung, da Ihr LEDIGLICH SCHADENSERSATZ IN GELD zugesprochen bekommt, nicht aber eine Verpflichtung gegen CORE, die Website wieder ins Netz zu stellen.

Einen Anspruch gegen CORE auf Freigabe der Domain habt Ihr grundstzlich nach ¤ 97 UrhG, da CORE mit seiner Ma§nahme in Euer Verffentlichungsrecht als Urheber eines Kunstwerks eingegriffen hat.

In materieller Hinsicht ist fraglich, ob CORE gerechtfertigt gewesen ist, wenn nach Schweizer Recht eine Rechtspflicht fr CORE bestanden htte, einzugreifen. Eine solche Rechtfertigung existiert jedoch nicht nach deutschem Recht, soda§ grundstzlich von einem Anspruch ausgegangen werden darf. 

Ein Anspruch auf Schadensersatz mit dem Inhalt, da§ die Website wieder ins Netz gebracht werden kann, wird jedoch von deutschen Gerichten nicht gewhrt: Die deutschen Gerichte sprechen keinen
Schadensersatzanspruch fr einen weltweit entstandenen Schaden zu, soda§ der Wiedergutmachungsakt, die Seite wieder freizuschalten, bereits hier scheitert, soweit es nicht die Mglichkeit gibt, CORE zu verpflichten, die Seite fr deutsche Nutzer allein freizuschalten. 

Die prozessuale Frage, ob berhaupt ein Gerichtsstand in Deutschland gegeben ist, da grundstzlich der Gerichtsstand des Handlungsortes ist und somit primr die Schweiz, kann somit dahingestellt bleiben. Ebenfalls nur angesprochen, aber nicht gelst zu werden braucht hier das Problem, wie ein deutsches Urteil in der Schweiz vollstreckt werden knnte. 

Beide Rechtsverfolgungen sind brigens
Hauptsache-Klagen und kein Eilrechtsschutz. 

Wolltet Ihr ein Eilverfahren gegen CORE, so m§tet Ihr eine neue Domain mit dem identischen Inhalt freischalten lassen und anschlie§end sofort per einstweiliger Verfgung einen Unterlassungsanspruch gegen CORE geltend machen.

Gerichtsstand wre allerdings die Schweiz. 

Gr§e


Steffi



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Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:50:44 -0500
To: liz@ubermorgen.com, net_CALLBOY <hans@ubermorgen.com>, ray@rtmark.com From: frank guerrero <frank@rtmark.com>
Subject: Re: touchdown and var;; [V]ote-auction 

Update on Chicago Board of Election Commissioners v. Hans Bernhard, James Baumgartner, et al.:

Unfortunately, The ACLU lost the bid to keep the case in Federal Court (which had been going on since December) and the case is now back in Illinois State Court, in the hands of the judge who granted the preliminary injunction in the first place. The ACLU does not feel we have as good of a chance with the State Judge as we would have with the Federal Judge, so they are talking with the Board's lawyers about a settlement that would allow me to put the site back up in some form. We were hoping to file a counter-claim that would help me recoup some of my earlier legal costs, but the ACLU doesn't think that will fly with the state judge, so this possible settlement would (hopefully) keep me out of jail or further lawsuits. Also, the state court moves at a snail's pace so it could be quite a while before the case ever got to trial, and this settlement might be completed in time for me to include it as an appendix to my thesis. This is all preliminary right now, so don't mention it to any friends in the press. Once it is all over, I will write a press release declaring victory, free speech rights upheld, etc.

I am looking forward to your comments on my thesis draft. 

James


At 5:44 PM +0100 3/10/01, net_CALLBOY wrote: 


also, you have any contact to james, any news from chicago??
